A Question Of Prayer

I received this as a comment this morning:

Hello,

Just to be honest off the bat I am going to tell you that I am an atheist. I was wondering if you could answer a small quandary that no theist I have come across has answered satisfactorily.

If hypothetically I assume 1) God exists 2) He has a divine and perfect plan. How can you pray to him asking for help? Isn't that tantamount to saying "God I don't like the way your divine and perfect plan is going for me at the moment. Please change it."

Look forward to your answer

Regards

Steven

This is such a fascinating question.

Assuming (hypothetically, of course) that there is a God, I think that a fundamental flaw in how people view prayer is that we so often think it is about us changing God's mind, or our circumstances, when in reality, what prayer does is that it changes us.

Our perspective can be changed when we pray: we are no longer self-centred.

As a parent, my children have two ways of relating to me - they either come requesting things ("Dad, can I have some money?"), or they simply want to spend some time with me, hanging out, sometimes talking, sometimes just being around me. And both of these ways of relating go with the turf of being a dad. I guess they suggest love and interdependence?

One problem we have is that we somehow assume to operate on the same level as God. At the risk of outraging atheists (for whom quoting the Bible doesn't serve as evidence, and nor does experience):

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways,"

declares the LORD.

 As the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

                                        Isaiah 55:8-9 (NIV)

Prayer acknowledges that difference and is a sign that we want to be in relationship with God. What interests me is not so much what circumstances change as a result of prayer (but I do believe that "prayer changes things"), but rather how our relationship with God is strengthened through good times and bad when we do pray.

So, at least for now, I'll continue with the delusion of God. Steven's question hasn't dented my faith, and I'm quite sure that this answer will not have changed his worldview either.

Any other comments from esteemed readers?

Comments

[Tim]

I like what you say. Perhaps another idea to consider: we see a lot of intercessory prayer in church (one bod leading, everyone else in the shampoo position, and the prayers are voiced and mostly petition), but not a lot of meditative prayer - just chilling, letting God guide your thoughts, pondering in the silence.

[Beat Attitude]

I hope to answer this question and perhaps some of the questions which arise off the back of it.

Christians believe God has a plan which is perfect, because God is the author of that plan, and God is perfect.

Further to this, Christians would assert that God is in control of the universe. Nothing happens without his consent. Nothing exists without his consent.

If this is true, does it mean that God is in control of our thoughts? Our actions and decisions?

It does not mean that. It does mean that he could take control of our actions and our thoughts, if God were like that. He could do it consistently, he could do it periodically. If he were inclined to. He is God, and and we can’t question the decisions he makes because we are not God, and therefore cannot fathom his reasons, except in what he chooses to reveal to us.

Having said that, I don’t think he does work in that way.

He allowed us to have free will. That means that we are able to choose our own paths, decide what to believe, pick what socks to wear in the morning. (at this point, it’s possible to investigate the arguments about nature/nurture, but that is a side issue for now).

Does our having free will mean that God is no longer in control of the universe, and that things could happen without his consent? No. That means the choices we make are made with his consent.

Does our having free will mean that God is no longer the authority in the universe? No. His is still the ultimate authority. Much in the same way that there is a 70 speed limit on the motorway, but we are allowed to drive cars which travel at 100. With free will there is a personal response to the law, and with that response comes responsibility.

The next question which arises is this:

If God consents to everything that happens in the universe, how can LOVE be his defining characteristic, as the Christians believe? How is he a God of JUSTICE?

This brings us back to the idea of God’s perfect plan.

It is certainly mysterious that a perfect plan should involve so much INJUSTICE, HATE and PAIN. But is it possible? Many cannot see past these things, and dare not hope that there is anything to solve it.

Is it possible for joy to overcome pain? Absolutely. Ask a mother whether she would still have had her child if she had known what pain childbirth would have been, what sleepless nights there were ahead.

There is great injustice in the world, and a lot of it is not the product of human design. Is it possible that some greater purpose would be able to wipe out all that injustice? To heal the pain and replace it with greater joy? To end the war and replace it with endless peace?

The issue that arises here is one of the finality of death. An atheist believes that death has the final word. That the “soul” does not exist, and an afterlife is a concept so unfounded in traditional scientific method as to be unworthy of consideration. (of course. Scientific method by its nature is not designed to cope with the unknown laws of the supernatural, and these must be ascertained by other means.)

If death is final, when a child dies when they accidentally fall from a swing, there is no means of reparatory justice, and no consolation for the child’s family. Cold death has claimed them, and nothing can be done.

In a situation like this, it would be the natural human tendency to look for something more. To invent the concept of an afterlife is very much part of our nature. To want some kind of ultimate justice, of ultimate reparation, is natural for us.

Just because we want to believe in this does not prove that it exists. Neither does it prove that it does not exist. Our desire for justice is something that is just part of us. Wanting something to be true has no influence on whether it is true or not. (It’s an interesting question to ask where that desire comes from, but not one for this discussion!)

Returning to your question: how can we pray to God asking for help if this is tantamount to saying “God I don’t like the way your divine and perfect plan is going for me at the moment. Please change it.”

The simple answer is that it is not the same thing.

When we pray to God this is what we are saying:

“God, we acknowledge that what is going on is NOT what you want. People are flaunting your laws. They are driving at 100 in the 70 zones and not getting caught. People are being killed. Children are kidnapped. Money is stolen. Bombs go off. Water is polluted. Rain does not come. Rain does not stop! We are living in a world in which chance things happen, in which good things happen to bad people, and bad things to good people. God, we know that you hate this.

We also know that it is your intention to change this world. That you long to see it made new: not just fixed but made better. And we know that in the end, that is what you will do. You have chosen NOT to come in power just now. But we acknowledge that you have chosen us to be agents of that change just now. You have power available to us to change things NOW. You want us to ask for it, because in the asking for it, in the receiving of it, we learn a little of who you are. We learn a little of what is on your heart. So prayer DOES change us, and perhaps that is God’s purpose in suggesting we do it. But it also changes the world through us, which is also what you want.”

Why does God not change it all? Why, when we pray “end that war” or “eliminate poverty”, does He not do those things? Perhaps because in praying for these things, if we got what we wanted, we would not be any closer to understanding God, to knowing him. That is what his purpose was in creating us. I would suggest that it is greater for God that a man knows him than it is for all the poverty in our current world to be eradicated. We are created for a perfect, unsullied relationship with our Creator!

We believe that God’s purpose is to help us to understand him again. He gave us free will and from that point on, we walked away from him, choosing every step. He knew that had to be done, because what love, what good relationship can there be between a man and the wife he keeps as a slave? The world we live in is a complete manifestation of the very nature of free will. It is chaos and chance. It is injustice and sin. Yet it is God’s divine and perfect plan to change all that into something more amazing. And it’s the same with us.

So where is God’s justice? He has chosen to withhold justice for wrong choices, sinful choices for a time, and we are living in that time. Why has he done that? That we might have a chance to repent of walking away from him, that we might turn back to him, cast ourselves on his mercy and accept the amazing propitiation for our wrongdoing that he facilitated through Jesus Christ. And it’s with Jesus in the frame that things start to get really exciting …

[Biz]

Although God is Almighty and has ultimate authority over the universe, his desire is to be in relationship with us and to work in partnership with us. We don't pray just to get what we want, but we pray in agreement with the will of God.

Recently I heard a sermon about prayer and the preacher gave this helpful (although pretty basic) illustration:

We are partners with God, (although as Nick helpfully pointed out in his blog recently, "the Holy Spirit is the senior partner." http://learningtowalk.blogs.com/learning_to_walk/2007/06/in-gods-corner.html)

(or perhaps it is more like God is the owner and we are the managers)

When you write a cheque for a company, you need the signature of both partners in order for that cheque to be cashed. Therefore, if we pray things that are outside the will of God, he will not answer with a yes because he has to be in agreement too.

God has also designed it to be the other way too, so that he needs our 'signature' in order for his will to be done. I don't understand why he designed it this way, because God could sort out all the problems in the world in a second if he decided to by-pass his 'partners' who are not always the most compitent at their jobs!! But I think, again, it has something to do with relationship. God created us to love us and to work in partnership with him in looking after the earth. As somebody mentioned above, in working with us in this way it allows us to get to know more of him.

So, yes, God could do it all himself, and yes, he is still the ultimate authority in the universe, but the reason for prayer is for us to have a relationship with him, and also for his original plan to be fulfilled, which is us co-managing the earth with him, in the way that he originally designed.

Ok, so we are a long long way from getting it right, but its so good to know that God hasn't given up on us and hasn't sacked us, when we should have been sacked long ago!!

[Bruce]

It's a good question Steve. Just to add a thought that may help crystallise some of the good comments above... I'd guess your view of God and his plan (recognising they are to you hypothetical) is much more static than it is for Christians. We believe God's overall plan is perfect but not in the sense of fixed and unyielding like a diamond. We believe he has set it up so there is a lot of 'slack' for our participation, because God wants to relate and interact with us. But that doesn't stop Him having a game plan, a long term view which in our human limitedness we can't have.
I'd also want to take a slightly more optimistic view of the value of this kind of discussion than David hints by reckoning neither he nor you will change their mind! I'm stretched and changed by challenging questions and I hope Steve you are too by these comments!

[Kendo Nagasaki]

Is this a private party, or can atheists join the debate? Or do you guys have a forum?

[Beat Attitude]

Kendo we don't have a forum as such. The church has got an e-group, but it's mostly about practical stuff as debates tend to get a bit unwieldly on there. There are plenty of forums/free-for-alls online for discussing this stuff though, many of which tend to generate more heat than light.

I wouldn't say this was a debate: it was just a question which was answered according to the viewpoints of some Christians.

Having said that, though, if it's a discussion you're interested in then please do email gadgetvicar who will put you in touch with someone who'd take you up on the offer. I think it's a pretty healthy thing for your convictions to be challenged, despite it being so uncomfortable.

Or come along to the church and talk to some people there. We promise to be nice, and will try to be humble and not patronizing.

[Danny]

I really like your parent illustration, I think it hits the nail on the head... prayer for me is hanging out with God, spending time with him because of who he is and what he has revealed of himself in Christ, not because of what I can get out of him.

I have discovered in recent years that the less I ask for, the more I am given - which is a wonderful paradox! When I started my journey through the process of being selected, then training for ministry all I asked for was that I would survive, that I would get through all the things I was required to do (most of which were well out of my comfort zone) without falling flat on my face…but God has given me far more than I could ever ask for or imagine during my years at University. So I am learning to trust more and to ask less… especially when things are not turning out quite as I expect (or want) them to.

[Kendo Nagasaki]

Hi Beat Attitude,
Thanks for the invitation to church, but I am already familiar with christianity. It's something I was compelled to reject for many reasons. I may be misrepresenting GV here, and if i am, I apologise, but all any honest atheist wants is some reasonable evidence. The arguements presented above however are written with the circular logic of faith and non sequiturs, and I doubt they will convince any non christian. I do disagree with the interpretations of prayer, there are plenty of verses that teach that you should expect results. Also, the bible is not equipted to answer questions regarding free will. That is fast becoming the property of scientific investigation. There is plenty of evidence that we are genetically predisposed to acting in a certain way to particular environmental stimul. I suggest you watch matt ridley here on nature vs nurture http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/ the voles are amazing. You can make a promiscuous species nonogamous and vice versa by swapping a small sequence of DNA that controls the vassopressin gene. You can also make homosexual flies by playing about with a single gene called fruitless. There is evidence of a genetic component to human homosexuality too. free will is restricted.
I also have a problem with the idea that god is loving. Read deuteronomy 28 that is really nasty. Do what I say or else.. the isrealites are not exactly in a position to do what they want. True love does not threaten to make you eat your children if you disobey. It is also not loving to kill innocent children (ex 11) ororder their murder (jericho) Anyway, may I offer the invitation to you to come onto a site such as http://richarddawkins.net/
If anyone would like to discuss things further, feel free to email me +kend0nagasaki+@yahoo.co.uk (important note: remove the 2+s from the address - they are there to foil spam scanners)
Thank you for your attention

Kendo

[GadgetVicar]

Kendo makes some interesting points (is that an online name, representing a wrestling nature, an homage to the 1970's wrestler, or his real name?!).

Matt Ridley's 'Map of the human Y chromosome' was very helpful (watch the vid!)

All we can do is try to persuade with the limited knowledge that we have. All the OT carnage is difficult to stomach, I agree. Yet, it points to the judgement that would later fall on Christ. Fallen human nature/sin needs to be dealt with by a loving God, who can't simply ignore it. Hence the language of judgement one finds in the Bible. As I say, difficult to stomach, even for believers, and one can only believe it in faith (hence the circular arguments).

It's fascinating how evangelical atheists have become in their attempts to dissuade the deluded. Is this because of the perceived damage or evil that faith causes?

On another note, it would be very helpful to read the detail of any 'evidence of a genetic component to human homosexuality'. It's my understanding that such evidence is far from conclusive. As is the argument from nurture. The best we can say is that homosexual orientation occurs in human beings, and it seems that there might be many factors at work in different individuals?

PS I have a hunch that Kendo's middle name might be 'Billy'?

[Steven]

So are you saying that prayer doesn't change gods mind but changes you. Is it a placebo?

[Andrew T]

Kendo Nagasaki? Was he not a contemporary of Big Daddy on "World of Sport"? Those over 30 will probably know what I'm talking about!!!

[GadgetVicar]

A greater thinker than I has a take on this:

'In order to throw light on this question we must consider that divine providence decrees not only what effects shall take place, but also from what causes and in what order these effects shall take place. Now among other causes human acts are the causes of certain effects. Wherefore it must be that men do certain actions, not that thereby they may change the divine decree, but that by those actions they may achieve certain effects according to the order of the divine decree: and the same is to be said of natural causes. And so it is with regard to prayer. For we pray, not that we may change the divine decree, but that we may impetrate (ask for) that which God has decreed to be fulfilled by our prayers, in other words "that by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has decreed to give," as Gregory says.' (Thomas Aquinas - Summa Theologica 2-2.83.2c)

[Kendo Nagasaki]

Hi GV
I have looked into the original research, and there is a trend towards a genetic element - obviously humans are not open to the same experimental proceedures as animals, so it makes it harder, but the general trend of research into many important aspects of behaviour indicates a genetic element. Even if for the sake of arguement, the contribution was only 1%, then true free will does not exist. Also, in cases of addiction (there are genetic links to alchoholism), there are physiological responses that promote the addiction - this is why it is difficult to break these addictions. you cant choose to not be addicted, but you can choose to deal with it (some succeed - with or without faith). I think this is an important difference (and of course, many who choose to deal with it - christian and non christian fail). Aggression is also linked to dopamine receptor genes. There really is no significant differences between humans and animals - they even have culture and moral codes. For me evolution denies the existence of sin in the christian sense.
I must disagree with the notion of judgement, what has a new born done that is wrong? I appreciate the honest response about faith.
Do christians feel threatened about evangelical atheism? It's something i come across a lot. I think post 9/11 there has been a growing realisation of the bad that "religion" can do - there was an incident close to home this week. In America, if you are an atheist, you are treated like the catholics were in nothern ireland not that long ago. So people feel aggrieved. Then there is the fact that people are interested in spreading the truth, and get angry with those who interfere with science or tell us we are all so corrupt that we desrve eternal suffering. I think Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet and Harris all having best selling books just now has stirred things up.

You may think I am using a pseudonym, but the only way to unmask me is to step into the world of sport wrestling ring and remove it. You're not built like big daddy are you? in which case, I may need some help from rollerball steven :-)

[GadgetVicar]

Pax vobiscum! You can stay behind that mask.

[Paul Robertson]

Kendo, were you compelled to reject Christianity because of genetic predisposition or though choice? How would you know the difference? ;o)

[Kendo Nagaski]

Interesting question Paul. Dean Hamer proposed the VMAT2 gene as a "god" gene, but I'm not overly impressed by the evidence.
How would I test it? With great enthusiasm. It would involve breeding experiments involving atheists like Angelina Jolie or Natalie portman, or christians like Jessica Simpson and Natasha Beddingfield - dont think the ethics commitee would allow it though :-) I suppose the boring way is to do horizontal familial studies.
Either way, I dont believe and if god is real, I'm off to hell. There are also predeterminist theologies too, but as I said above, I dont believe the bible is equipted to answer this question

[Bruce]

Kendo, you're right that the Bible encourages us to pray expecting results. But this is an example of the need to read and absorb the message and import of the Bible as a whole - with an open mind and heart. A classic example passage of your point that we should ask expectantly is Matthew 7: 7 to 12, 'Ask, seek, knock..', where Jesus very vividly demonstrates God's willingness to give good gifts, comparing Him to a parent with children. But clearly a good parent doesn't just give a developing child anything they ask for. With the parent's adult wisdom that the child doesn't yet possess, he/she will only give the child gifts that are known will benefit them. And plainly that sometimes riles the child until they develop the wisdom to ask for gifts that are good for them, eg bread not sweets or drugs. In other words, a background priority of good parenting is training the child towards adult wisdom. I would suggest God's treatment of us is similar: He wants to train us to be more like Him in wisdom and every way so that we may receive the gifts that truly are good for us, the 'bread' and 'fish' from the above passage. But I need humility to trust Him in this and give Him a chance before dismissing it all as hocus pocus.
This is to address, in a no doubt limited way, just one of your points. As I would try to do in responding to your thoughts, I hope you'll consider it openly before jumping on and attacking it - even if you are an ex-wrestler!

[Jimmy McPhee]

In my opinion before someone could call themselves an Atheist they would have to read the Bible through and then if after giving the idea of God a little study and a little thought they decided they did not believe in God then they could call themselves an Atheist.
Glibly deciding that you're too intelligent to believe in God just doesn't cut it for me.

[Kendo Nagasaki]

Jimmy,
I may be picking up a tone here that you feel Atheists have not read the bible. This is a fallacious statement for at least two reason (3 if you are using it as an ad hominem). Firstly, you assume Atheists have not read the bible - anytime you want to discuss messianic prophecies in their original contexts or indeed the dating of the book of daniel, biblical atrocities or the genealogies of jesus etc, feel free to email me (address above). Secondly, it appears that you think christianity is the default position - I can only interpret what I think you mean here, so sorry if I misrepresent you. If so, it seems that you have a philosophy that pre-assumes the existence of god - that's circular reasoning. It may be worth pointing out the irony here: christians are atheistic with respect to all other gods without even picking up, let alone reading books such as the Koran, Sruti, Smriti or the guru granth sahib to name but a few.
All you need to be an Atheist, is lack sufficient proof that any god exists. Hope that clears up a christian myth about Atheism. as Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Also, why do christians make the straw man claim about Atheists thinking they are more intelligent - admittedly, the bible does tell you to be simple in your faith like a child (see, I have read it - and usually different translations for "difficult" verses), but I have not said here that I am more intelligent that you. Without making any assumptions about you, people who hold this view are usually projecting indoctrination or insecurities when this is said. If All this does is alter your perception of Atheists, then that alone is worthwhile

Bruce - I see you have enough to contend with on your blog. I would contend that an important part of prayer should be to provide evidence of god's existance, but it seems the view that you take requires no evidence, and makes you content with no real answer : as Billy says on your blog, he can learn that it is not Joe Pesci's will that he should marry Jessica Alba by praying to him. I suppose we could extend that to finding out his will on liverpool winning the champion's league or if he wants Madeline McCann reunited with her parents (which we all want), but I'll leave that for Billy to discuss with you

Kendo - need to start composing a response to BA (Nice to see him advertising chocholate bars these days :-) )

[Mary McCusker]

Jimmy

I was brought up as a catholic, and not only have I read the bible extensively but I also have a Higher in Religious Studies.. I am an atheist. Contrary to what you may think, most atheists, in my experience, have pored over the scripture of most religions in an attempt to understand why it has such a hold over so many people in the world. What is it about the Bible, Qur'an and the Torah, etc, that compels people to base their lives around them rather than, say, Gone with the Wind or War and Peace?

[Biz]

Hey, I have a suggestion for an experiment!

If all the christians who have contributed to this discussion pray that God convinces all the atheists who have contributed that he is real, then see what happens! If God is real then the only person who can convince those who don't believe is him, if he's not real then nothing will convince them, obviously! You up for it athiests? :-) You up for it christians? :-)

Simple but brilliant I think! :-)

[Bruce]

Kendo, being honest, I myself sometimes question if God is providing enough 'evidence' of his exixtence and reality in my own life - in terms of clearly answered prayer - to continue believing in Him. You have to be honest about doubts and questions to move forward with integrity. Something I would want to challenge though is the way reason and logic are commonly deployed in discussing something, or someone, by definition as big and mysterious as God. I think a little global and historical perspective is called for here. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty confident in saying that in the grand sweep of human history across the world, reason/logic has been only one means by which truth has been sought and apprehended. The organs of intuition and imagination, and the channels of symbol and imagery, for instance, have across the ages and continents been highly valued in this respect. So I'd argue we need to be careful not to exaggerate the role and importance of reason. It is a very good tool, but limited in scope, and I'd argue that in considering God due weight needs to be given to those other 'tools'. For instance, we humans have a tremendous capacity to appreciate the awesomeness of nature. I'd be wary of appealing to this as 'proof' of God's existence, but it does create in me an openness and receptivity to the possibility, that reason alone doesn't. And the nature of much of the Bible is that it appeals to these 'right brain' faculties as much as or more than reason. So I'm uncomfortable with the ready accusation of eg 'circular reasoning' in discussing God. Yes we need to think as clearly and reasonably as possible, but reason can only get you so far, and I'm afraid can't allow you to pin down God. Reality is not set up like that. This is only the beginning of a line of thought so don't react to it as if it's the last say. Just looking for a fresh take on the question. My faith is by no means entirely subjective, I have objective grounds too: heart and head. But it'd take another comment to enlarge on that.
PS I'm almost as impressed by the mental gymnastics involved in persuading us you're not Billy, as by those involved in defending atheism! If you guys aren't one and the same, then you're either twins or Billy I think you've been nurturing a disciple.

[Biz]

Following on from what Bruce is saying, I do believe that sometimes we can limit ourselves with such a focus on logic and evidence. Yes, I agree that these are important, but I think we have developed such a way of thinking in the "Secular West" which people from other cultures in the world find really difficult to understand. I would say that the majority of people in the world believe that there is a spiritual aspect to humanity. Many people in Western countries do, but even more so do those from other cultures such as African, Asian and South American. In fact, our non-spiritual way of looking at things in the West is actually very unusual and we are something of a minority.

This doesn't prove that there is a spiritual element to us (you can always argue scientific or psychological reasons for all these things if you want to), but it does seem that everybody is looking for a reason, a higher purpose, a hope for something beyond this often difficult life.

Perhaps there is nothing there and we are all just pathetically hoping for something that doesn't exist (a depressing thought!) Or perhaps, to quote the Bible, "[God has] set eternity in the hearts of men" (Ecclesiastes 3:11). I believe the latter, I believe we have this longing for purpose and a need to worship something because God is real and he designed us that way.

[Paul Robertson]

Kendo, what would be "proof" that God exists? I would put it to you that the majority of things that we take to be true in life and that form our worldview are not based on the type of evidence that would be required for publication in, say, Nature. We accept much, for good reason, on authority and experience without resorting to the highest standards of scientific empirical evidence. In fact, it is easy to reject any evidence or belief by raising the bar on your "skeptic-ometer" high enough. (Prove to me that we landed on the moon, Elvis is really dead, that Transylvania is a real place...)

Christianity is principally about God taking the initiative and revealing himself to us - primarily through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus - in order that we could be saved from the mess that sin and death makes to each of us. Whether Christianity is true depends on whether Jesus' own testimony about himself and his mission is true. He said he was God, he said he was the only way to God, and he said that his death and resurrection would allow us to be with God, by dealing with the sin in our lives - a problem that we are entirely unable to deal with on our own. There is good historical evidence for Jesus' life and works. He has had more impact on this planet than any other person, despite having had no formal education, no political power, never having left Israel, only being in ministry for three years and having been betrayed by his friends and crucified as a traitor. There is ample personal testimony now of people who's lives have been changed by Jesus. If Jesus' claims about himself are not true, you don't need to go any further than that. Christianity is patently a waste of time.

PS I would also put it to you that the direct revelation of God is insufficient for faith. Just because you've "proof" of God's existance doesn't mean you would follow him...

[Steven]

"For we pray, not that we may change the divine decree, but that we may impetrate (ask for) that which God has decreed to be fulfilled by our prayers, in other words "that by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has decreed to give," as Gregory says.' (Thomas Aquinas - Summa Theologica 2-2.83.2c)"

You are praying for something god has already decided?